美国知名导演斯派克·李谈詹恩·温纳的《大师》争议:“黑人的天才常常被忽视的象征”
Spike Lee is among those upset about Rolling Stone co-founder Jann Wenner’s recent controversial choice to leave women and Black musicians out of his new book The Masters.
《滚石》联合创始人詹恩·温纳最近有争议地选择将女性和黑人音乐家排除在他的新书《大师》之外，斯派克·李就是其中之一。
During a wide-ranging interview with Lee at the 2023 New Yorker Festival on Saturday, New Yorker editor David Remnick recalled how a few weeks ago the pair were talking and Lee was “exercised” about the Wenner controversy.
上周六，在2023年纽约客节(New Yorker Festival)上，《纽约客》编辑大卫·雷姆尼克(David Remnick)对李进行了广泛的采访，他回忆了几周前两人的谈话，李对温纳的争议感到“不安”。
“It is just emblematic of how often Black people, brown people, colored people are overlooked for their genius, for their skill, hard work,” Lee said during the New Yorker Festival talk.
“这只是一个象征，表明黑人、棕色人种和有色人种的天才、技能和努力工作常常被忽视，”李在纽约客节演讲中说。
When reminded that Wenner had explained these omissions, in an interview with The New York Times that seemed to kickstart the backlash against the Rolling Stone co-founder, by saying that no female or Black artists were “articulate” enough to be included, Lee suggested that may have been particularly what he was irritated about.
在《纽约时报》的一次采访中，温纳解释了这些遗漏，他说没有女性或黑人艺术家“表达能力”足以被包括在内，这似乎引发了对这位《滚石》联合创始人的强烈反对。当被提醒说这可能是他特别恼火的地方。
“Whoa! There you go,” Lee said when Remnick recapped the “articulate” excuse.
“哇!这就对了，”李在雷姆尼克复述“清晰”的借口时说。
“Think about all of the people you left out,” Lee continued. “I mean Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis, they didn’t invent rock ‘n’ roll.”
“想想你漏掉的所有人，”李继续说道。“我的意思是，猫王、杰里·李·刘易斯，他们并没有发明摇滚乐。”
In the Times interview, when asked about his selection process, after Wenner noted in the intro to The Masters that female and Black performers weren’t in his zeitgeist, Wenner said, “When I was referring to the zeitgeist, I was referring to Black performers, not to the female performers, OK? Just to get that accurate. The selection was not a deliberate selection. It was kind of intuitive over the years; it just fell together that way. The people had to meet a couple criteria, but it was just kind of my personal interest and love of them. Insofar as the women, just none of them were as articulate enough on this intellectual level.”
在接受《纽约时报》采访时，当被问及他的选择过程时，温纳在《大师》的介绍中指出，女性和黑人表演者不符合他的时代精神，温纳说:“当我提到时代精神时，我指的是黑人表演者，而不是女性表演者，好吗?为了得到准确的结果。这种选择并不是经过深思熟虑的。多年来，这是一种直觉;它们就这样聚在一起了。这些人必须满足一些标准，但这只是我个人的兴趣和对他们的喜爱。就女性而言，她们中没有一个人在智力层面上表达得足够清晰。”
When The Times‘ David Marchese, who formerly worked for Rolling Stone, suggested that perhaps Joni Mitchell could have been included, Wenner said, “It’s not that they’re not creative geniuses. It’s not that they’re inarticulate, although, go have a deep conversation with Grace Slick or Janis Joplin. Please, be my guest. You know, Joni was not a philosopher of rock ’n’ roll. She didn’t, in my mind, meet that test. Not by her work, not by other interviews she did. The people I interviewed were the kind of philosophers of rock. Of Black artists — you know, Stevie Wonder, genius, right? I suppose when you use a word as broad as ‘masters,’ the fault is using that word. Maybe Marvin Gaye, or Curtis Mayfield? I mean, they just didn’t articulate at that level.”
曾供职于《滚石》杂志的《纽约时报》记者大卫·马切斯(David Marchese)提出，或许乔尼·米切尔(Joni Mitchell)也可以入选，温纳说，“这并不是说他们不是创意天才。这并不是说他们不善于表达，不过，去和格蕾丝·斯利克或詹尼斯·乔普林进行一次深入的交谈吧。请别客气。你知道，乔尼不是摇滚乐的哲学家。在我看来，她不符合这个标准。不是因为她的作品，也不是因为她接受的其他采访。我采访的人都是摇滚乐的哲学家。黑人艺术家——你知道，史蒂夫·汪达，天才，对吧?我想，当你使用‘主人’这样一个宽泛的词时，错误就在于使用了这个词。也许是马文·盖伊，或者柯蒂斯·梅菲尔德?我的意思是，他们只是没有达到那种水平。”
He said he could have “for public relations sake” included one Black and female artist “that didn’t measure up to that same historical standard, just to avert this kind of criticism.”
他说，“为了公共关系”，他本可以加入一位“不符合同样历史标准”的黑人和女性艺术家，只是为了避免这种批评。
The day after the interview, Wenner was removed from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Foundation board of directors and he apologized for his remarks.
在接受采访的第二天，温纳被从摇滚名人堂基金会董事会除名，他为自己的言论道歉。
“In my interview with The New York Times, I made comments that diminished the contributions, genius, and impact of Black and women artists and I apologize wholeheartedly for those remarks,” he said in a statement given to The Hollywood Reporter. “The Masters is a collection of interviews I’ve done over the years that seemed to me to best represent an idea of rock ‘n’ roll’s impact on my world; they were not meant to represent the whole of music and its diverse and important originators but to reflect the high points of my career and interviews I felt illustrated the breadth and experience in that career. They don’t reflect my appreciation and admiration for myriad totemic, world-changing artists whose music and ideas I revere and will celebrate and promote as long as I live. I totally understand the inflammatory nature of badly chosen words and deeply apologize and accept the consequences.”
他在给《好莱坞报道者》的一份声明中说:“在接受《纽约时报》采访时，我发表了贬低黑人和女性艺术家的贡献、才华和影响的言论，我为这些言论真诚地道歉。”“《大师赛》是我多年来所做采访的集锦，在我看来，这些采访最能代表摇滚乐对我的世界的影响;它们并不是要代表整个音乐和它的多样性和重要的创始人，而是要反映我职业生涯的高潮，我觉得这些采访说明了我职业生涯的广度和经验。它们并没有反映出我对无数图腾般的、改变世界的艺术家的欣赏和钦佩，我尊敬他们的音乐和思想，并将在我有生之年赞美和推广他们。我完全理解这种措辞不当的煽动性，我深表歉意，并接受后果。”
Elsewhere during Lee and Remnick’s hour-long chat, the filmmaker gave audience members at New York City’s Webster Hall, just a few hints about his upcoming Colin Kaepernick docuseries for ESPN.
在李和雷姆尼克长达一小时的谈话中，这位电影制作人给了纽约市韦伯斯特大厅的观众一些关于他即将为ESPN拍摄的科林·卡佩尼克纪录片的暗示。
Lee said the project, which he says will be a five-part series, is “taking a long time,” because “the story keeps going.”The Oscar-winning writer-director says he currently has hundreds of hours of footage of interviews, including with Remnick, who shared his unease with being interviewed for 30-45 minutes with a camera that seemed like it was two-and-a-half feet from his face.
李说，这部五集的电视剧“需要很长时间”，因为“故事还在继续”。这位获得奥斯卡奖的编剧兼导演说，他目前有数百小时的采访录像，包括对雷姆尼克的采访。雷姆尼克说，他对自己在30-45分钟的采访中面对一个看起来离他脸只有2.5英尺的摄像机感到不安。
“You were great,” Lee said.
“你太棒了，”李说。
Remnick: “We’ll see.”
雷姆尼克:“走着瞧吧。”
The Kaepernick project was announced in February 2022 as part of the former NFL quarterback and activist’s first-look deal with ESPN parent company Disney.
卡佩尼克项目于2022年2月宣布，作为这位前NFL四分卫和激进分子与ESPN母公司迪士尼的初步协议的一部分。
The series, which Lee is directing and producing, is expected to feature Kaepernick telling his own, first person account of his life story, including his childhood as the mixed-race son of white adoptive parents; his football success in high school, college and with the NFL’s San Francisco 49ers; and the controversy that preceded his exit from the 49ers and alleged blackballing from the league after he took a knee during the National Anthem to protest racism and police brutality.
这部由李执导并监制的电视剧预计将由卡佩尼克讲述他自己的第一人称人生故事，包括他作为白人养父母的混血儿的童年;他在高中、大学和美国国家橄榄球联盟(NFL)旧金山49人队(San Francisco 49ers)的足球成就;以及在他离开49人队之前的争议，以及他在国歌期间单膝跪地抗议种族主义和警察暴行后被联盟拒之门外的指控。
《滚石》联合创始人詹恩·温纳最近有争议地选择将女性和黑人音乐家排除在他的新书《大师》之外，斯派克·李就是其中之一。
During a wide-ranging interview with Lee at the 2023 New Yorker Festival on Saturday, New Yorker editor David Remnick recalled how a few weeks ago the pair were talking and Lee was “exercised” about the Wenner controversy.
上周六，在2023年纽约客节(New Yorker Festival)上，《纽约客》编辑大卫·雷姆尼克(David Remnick)对李进行了广泛的采访，他回忆了几周前两人的谈话，李对温纳的争议感到“不安”。
“It is just emblematic of how often Black people, brown people, colored people are overlooked for their genius, for their skill, hard work,” Lee said during the New Yorker Festival talk.
“这只是一个象征，表明黑人、棕色人种和有色人种的天才、技能和努力工作常常被忽视，”李在纽约客节演讲中说。
When reminded that Wenner had explained these omissions, in an interview with The New York Times that seemed to kickstart the backlash against the Rolling Stone co-founder, by saying that no female or Black artists were “articulate” enough to be included, Lee suggested that may have been particularly what he was irritated about.
在《纽约时报》的一次采访中，温纳解释了这些遗漏，他说没有女性或黑人艺术家“表达能力”足以被包括在内，这似乎引发了对这位《滚石》联合创始人的强烈反对。当被提醒说这可能是他特别恼火的地方。
“Whoa! There you go,” Lee said when Remnick recapped the “articulate” excuse.
“哇!这就对了，”李在雷姆尼克复述“清晰”的借口时说。
“Think about all of the people you left out,” Lee continued. “I mean Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis, they didn’t invent rock ‘n’ roll.”
“想想你漏掉的所有人，”李继续说道。“我的意思是，猫王、杰里·李·刘易斯，他们并没有发明摇滚乐。”
In the Times interview, when asked about his selection process, after Wenner noted in the intro to The Masters that female and Black performers weren’t in his zeitgeist, Wenner said, “When I was referring to the zeitgeist, I was referring to Black performers, not to the female performers, OK? Just to get that accurate. The selection was not a deliberate selection. It was kind of intuitive over the years; it just fell together that way. The people had to meet a couple criteria, but it was just kind of my personal interest and love of them. Insofar as the women, just none of them were as articulate enough on this intellectual level.”
在接受《纽约时报》采访时，当被问及他的选择过程时，温纳在《大师》的介绍中指出，女性和黑人表演者不符合他的时代精神，温纳说:“当我提到时代精神时，我指的是黑人表演者，而不是女性表演者，好吗?为了得到准确的结果。这种选择并不是经过深思熟虑的。多年来，这是一种直觉;它们就这样聚在一起了。这些人必须满足一些标准，但这只是我个人的兴趣和对他们的喜爱。就女性而言，她们中没有一个人在智力层面上表达得足够清晰。”
When The Times‘ David Marchese, who formerly worked for Rolling Stone, suggested that perhaps Joni Mitchell could have been included, Wenner said, “It’s not that they’re not creative geniuses. It’s not that they’re inarticulate, although, go have a deep conversation with Grace Slick or Janis Joplin. Please, be my guest. You know, Joni was not a philosopher of rock ’n’ roll. She didn’t, in my mind, meet that test. Not by her work, not by other interviews she did. The people I interviewed were the kind of philosophers of rock. Of Black artists — you know, Stevie Wonder, genius, right? I suppose when you use a word as broad as ‘masters,’ the fault is using that word. Maybe Marvin Gaye, or Curtis Mayfield? I mean, they just didn’t articulate at that level.”
曾供职于《滚石》杂志的《纽约时报》记者大卫·马切斯(David Marchese)提出，或许乔尼·米切尔(Joni Mitchell)也可以入选，温纳说，“这并不是说他们不是创意天才。这并不是说他们不善于表达，不过，去和格蕾丝·斯利克或詹尼斯·乔普林进行一次深入的交谈吧。请别客气。你知道，乔尼不是摇滚乐的哲学家。在我看来，她不符合这个标准。不是因为她的作品，也不是因为她接受的其他采访。我采访的人都是摇滚乐的哲学家。黑人艺术家——你知道，史蒂夫·汪达，天才，对吧?我想，当你使用‘主人’这样一个宽泛的词时，错误就在于使用了这个词。也许是马文·盖伊，或者柯蒂斯·梅菲尔德?我的意思是，他们只是没有达到那种水平。”
He said he could have “for public relations sake” included one Black and female artist “that didn’t measure up to that same historical standard, just to avert this kind of criticism.”
他说，“为了公共关系”，他本可以加入一位“不符合同样历史标准”的黑人和女性艺术家，只是为了避免这种批评。
The day after the interview, Wenner was removed from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Foundation board of directors and he apologized for his remarks.
在接受采访的第二天，温纳被从摇滚名人堂基金会董事会除名，他为自己的言论道歉。
“In my interview with The New York Times, I made comments that diminished the contributions, genius, and impact of Black and women artists and I apologize wholeheartedly for those remarks,” he said in a statement given to The Hollywood Reporter. “The Masters is a collection of interviews I’ve done over the years that seemed to me to best represent an idea of rock ‘n’ roll’s impact on my world; they were not meant to represent the whole of music and its diverse and important originators but to reflect the high points of my career and interviews I felt illustrated the breadth and experience in that career. They don’t reflect my appreciation and admiration for myriad totemic, world-changing artists whose music and ideas I revere and will celebrate and promote as long as I live. I totally understand the inflammatory nature of badly chosen words and deeply apologize and accept the consequences.”
他在给《好莱坞报道者》的一份声明中说:“在接受《纽约时报》采访时，我发表了贬低黑人和女性艺术家的贡献、才华和影响的言论，我为这些言论真诚地道歉。”“《大师赛》是我多年来所做采访的集锦，在我看来，这些采访最能代表摇滚乐对我的世界的影响;它们并不是要代表整个音乐和它的多样性和重要的创始人，而是要反映我职业生涯的高潮，我觉得这些采访说明了我职业生涯的广度和经验。它们并没有反映出我对无数图腾般的、改变世界的艺术家的欣赏和钦佩，我尊敬他们的音乐和思想，并将在我有生之年赞美和推广他们。我完全理解这种措辞不当的煽动性，我深表歉意，并接受后果。”
Elsewhere during Lee and Remnick’s hour-long chat, the filmmaker gave audience members at New York City’s Webster Hall, just a few hints about his upcoming Colin Kaepernick docuseries for ESPN.
在李和雷姆尼克长达一小时的谈话中，这位电影制作人给了纽约市韦伯斯特大厅的观众一些关于他即将为ESPN拍摄的科林·卡佩尼克纪录片的暗示。
Lee said the project, which he says will be a five-part series, is “taking a long time,” because “the story keeps going.”The Oscar-winning writer-director says he currently has hundreds of hours of footage of interviews, including with Remnick, who shared his unease with being interviewed for 30-45 minutes with a camera that seemed like it was two-and-a-half feet from his face.
李说，这部五集的电视剧“需要很长时间”，因为“故事还在继续”。这位获得奥斯卡奖的编剧兼导演说，他目前有数百小时的采访录像，包括对雷姆尼克的采访。雷姆尼克说，他对自己在30-45分钟的采访中面对一个看起来离他脸只有2.5英尺的摄像机感到不安。
“You were great,” Lee said.
“你太棒了，”李说。
Remnick: “We’ll see.”
雷姆尼克:“走着瞧吧。”
The Kaepernick project was announced in February 2022 as part of the former NFL quarterback and activist’s first-look deal with ESPN parent company Disney.
卡佩尼克项目于2022年2月宣布，作为这位前NFL四分卫和激进分子与ESPN母公司迪士尼的初步协议的一部分。
The series, which Lee is directing and producing, is expected to feature Kaepernick telling his own, first person account of his life story, including his childhood as the mixed-race son of white adoptive parents; his football success in high school, college and with the NFL’s San Francisco 49ers; and the controversy that preceded his exit from the 49ers and alleged blackballing from the league after he took a knee during the National Anthem to protest racism and police brutality.
这部由李执导并监制的电视剧预计将由卡佩尼克讲述他自己的第一人称人生故事，包括他作为白人养父母的混血儿的童年;他在高中、大学和美国国家橄榄球联盟(NFL)旧金山49人队(San Francisco 49ers)的足球成就;以及在他离开49人队之前的争议，以及他在国歌期间单膝跪地抗议种族主义和警察暴行后被联盟拒之门外的指控。
