演员乔纳森·凡·奈斯在达克斯·谢泼德的播客上，为跨性别权利辩护时泣不成声

乔纳森·凡·奈斯在采访达克斯·谢泼德时情绪激动。

During the wide-ranging conversation on Shepard's podcast, Armchair Expert, the duo clashed while discussing whether The New York Times should be considered a liberal-leaning organization, given what Van Ness described as "anti-trans" content. To this, Shepard argued using conservative talking points such as the outlet was merely "challenging" and asking "questions" about issues, such as teens taking puberty blockers.
在谢泼德的播客《扶手椅专家》上进行的广泛对话中，两人在讨论《纽约时报》是否应该被视为一个倾向自由主义的组织时发生了冲突，因为凡·奈斯称之为“反跨性别”的内容。对此，谢泼德认为，使用保守的谈话要点，如出口，只是“具有挑战性”，并就一些问题提出“问题”，比如青少年服用青春期阻断剂。

He continued, "This whole notion that to be critical… or to question even question it makes you an enemy. I don't think that's the way forward."
他继续说道，“这种批判性的想法……或者质疑甚至质疑都会让你成为敌人。我不认为这是前进的道路。”

"I feel like I'm talking to my dad," Van Ness, who is trans and uses they/them pronouns, said in response.
“我觉得我在和我爸爸说话，”凡·奈斯回应道，他是跨性别者，使用they/them代词。

"All I'm saying is what we know about misinformation and disinformation is when you have an outsized reaction to something, there's a good chance that you're being exposed to misinformation and disinformation," the Queer Eye expert and LGBTQ+ activist said. "And a lot of the rhetoric around the anti-trans backlash does have a lot of misinformation and disinformation in it."
Queer Eye专家和LGBTQ+活动家表示：“我想说的是，我们对错误信息和虚假信息的了解是，当你对某件事有过度反应时，你很有可能会接触到错误信息和错误信息。”。“围绕反跨性别反弹的许多言论中确实有很多错误信息和虚假信息。”

"I'm not calling you a transphobe," Van Ness said at one point. "You can not be transphobic and still have thoughts that espouse trans misogyny and espouse transphobic ideologies and beliefs."
“我并不是说你是跨性别恐惧症患者，”凡·奈斯曾说。“你不可能是跨性别恐惧症患者，但仍然有支持跨性别厌女症和支持跨性别恐惧意识形态和信仰的想法。”

Van Ness also pointed out that as a nonbinary person himself, they find it "disappointing" when people — such as J.K. Rowling — claim to be fighting for women when they exclude trans kids from sports. The discussion went on for over 20 minutes, with Van Ness citing specific instances of athletes and children being excluded from sports on illegitimate grounds.
凡·奈斯还指出，作为一个非二进制人，当人们——比如J.K.罗琳——声称在将跨性别儿童排除在体育运动之外时是在为女性而战时，他们会感到“失望”。讨论持续了20多分钟，凡·奈斯列举了运动员和儿童因非法理由被排除在体育运动之外的具体例子。

When they noted that they hoped their appearance on Shepard's show would be spent chatting about their own podcast, Getting Curious, Shepard apologized for the tangent, saying he "did not intend" to start a debate.
当他们注意到，他们希望自己在谢泼德节目中的露面能花在谈论自己的播客《好奇》上时，谢泼德为此事道歉，称他“不打算”引发辩论。

"I didn't want that at all," Shepard said. "I adore you. I think that you're hysterical and talented and I love that you're an activist." Afterwards, Van Ness broke down in tears as they unpacked the personal significance of the issue.
“我根本不想那样，”谢泼德说。“我崇拜你。我认为你歇斯底里，才华横溢，我喜欢你是一个活动家。”之后，当他们解开这个问题的个人意义时，凡·奈斯泣不成声。

"I could just cry because I'm so tired of having to fight for little kids because they just want to be included," they told Shepard, getting emotional. "I wish that people were as passionate about little kids being able to be included or grow up as they were about fictitious women's fairness in sports. I have to tell you, I am very tired."
他们情绪激动地告诉谢泼德：“我可以哭了，因为我厌倦了为孩子们而战，因为他们只想被包括在内。”。“我希望人们对小孩子能够被包容或成长充满热情，就像他们对虚构的女性在体育运动中的公平充满热情一样。我必须告诉你，我很累。”

Van Ness added, "I'm scared of the vitriol that trans people face everyday."
凡·奈斯补充道：“我害怕跨性别者每天面临的刻薄。”

Noting that the "casual questioning" of rights can have even weightier results than trans kids being unable to participate in sports, "It's also healthcare, it's also gender-based violence," they said.
他们指出，对权利的“随意质疑”可能会比跨性别儿童无法参加体育运动产生更严重的后果，“这也是医疗保健，也是基于性别的暴力，”他们说。